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COPE office in St. Louis? Why am I never informed about such things?

Obtaining COPE accreditation shouldn't be problematic. Due diligence, forms, outlines, CVs, fees, etc. Yep, there are fees. C'est la vie.

I'm signing up for the CE. Looks good. I have some ideas for topics in future events if ODs have need or interest.

COPE office? I am so lost... :)
 
Michael W Ohlson said:
COPE office in St. Louis? Why am I never informed about such things?

Obtaining COPE accreditation shouldn't be problematic. Due diligence, forms, outlines, CVs, fees, etc. Yep, there are fees. C'est la vie..
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Mike -- Don't think i'm complaining about the COPE certification costs, i'm not.

Someone has to vet the materials, or else we could put on talks that were nothing more than Paul talking about the price of rotisserie chickens, or me ranting about Comcast for 50 minutes.

I just want to make everyone aware of what the base costs are for events like this, and why sometimes you'll see people not 'go for the gusto' with huge numbers of credit hours. We like gusto though, so....
 
BTW, i have a confirmation of another talk, not on the list yet -- Eyecor's CEO Bob Rebello is going to give a COPE-approved hour on ICD-10.

That should be a fun one, if you've never heard him speak, he's an incredibly colorful guy.
 
No worries. I wasn't explicit in my comments. My fault.

Costs suck. I need to pay for a new OCT. It's not pretty with reimbursement in Iowa.

I have several ideas for topics in the next event. The low cost and flexibility allow ODs to consider subjects they might otherwise avoid or just be unable to study.
 
Michael W Ohlson said:
I have several ideas for topics in the next event. The low cost and flexibility allow ODs to consider subjects they might otherwise avoid or just be unable to study.
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... and in the interest of full disclosure, we asked Mike to speak at this upcoming event but when we were putting it together, he concocted some sort of lame excuse about being off in latin america doing good deeds or something...
 
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AdminWolf said:
... and in the interest of full disclosure, we asked Mike to speak at this upcoming event but when we were putting it together, he concocted some sort of lame excuse about being off in latin america doing good deeds or something...
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And, I'm still not right.

I wasn't right in the head prior to the trip. Now, I have other difficulties. No good deed goes unpunished. 3800 pts in 4.5 days. Come home. Get sick. Life is fair.
 
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Michael W Ohlson said:
COPE office in St. Louis? Why am I never informed about such things?

Obtaining COPE accreditation shouldn't be problematic. Due diligence, forms, outlines, CVs, fees, etc. Yep, there are fees. C'est la vie.

I'm signing up for the CE. Looks good. I have some ideas for topics in future events if ODs have need or interest.

COPE office? I am so lost... :)
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Not sure if serious, but I needed to get something cope approved quickly once and the nice lady I was talking to turned out to be in a building five minutes from my house.
 
Tom Stickel said:
Not sure if serious, but I needed to get something cope approved quickly once and the nice lady I was talking to turned out to be in a building five minutes from my house.
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I'm glib to a fault and seldom serious. I'm serious about the public good and setting a straight course for optometry. Otherwise, I'm a doofus wearing a propeller beanie.

ARBO moved to Charlotte, NC. The office was in St. Louis and there was a nice woman there and your story rings true.

But, we moved to Charlotte quite a while back.

So, if there's a COPE office, they're independent!

I'm told we need "independent" CE accreditation, so maybe that's the beginning. :)
 
FYI as of Jan 1, 2015, ALL hours in Oregon can be performed online!!! -Charlie
 
Charles A McBride said:
FYI as of Jan 1, 2015, ALL hours in Oregon can be performed online!!! -Charlie
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!!! Very interesting development, Charlie! How many hours annually? Is our chart right?

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AdminWolf said:
!!! Very interesting development, Charlie! How many hours annually? Is our chart right?

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Our chart only shows 9 internet hours allowed for Oregon. Charlie, should we change that to 18?
 
AdminWolf said:
Our chart only shows 9 internet hours allowed for Oregon. Charlie, should we change that to 18?
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Yes. Change it to 18. I spoke with the Board this afternoon.
 
Charles A McBride said:
Yes. Change it to 18. I spoke with the Board this afternoon.
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Updated! Thanks so much for the info, Charlie!

So that makes 2 states that I know of where you can do CE totally online (and CEwire would give you enough credits for the whole shebang..)

If everyone could check out the chart and let me know if changes need to be made, i'd appreciate it!
 
Charles A McBride said:
FYI as of Jan 1, 2015, ALL hours in Oregon can be performed online!!! -Charlie
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Interesting. I wonder how they justified this in terms of protecting the public health. I'm not saying it will or will not. I dunno. No one does. It's just a topic of interest. We've covered the good/bad/known/unknown aspects of CE in other threads. It's a bold step in some ways.

I see OR utilizes COPE. Good, good. I realize the citizens of OR do not care about my emotions or opinions. I have an OR license, though. :)

It appears that the Public Health topic is placed in the excluded "Optometric Business Mx" Category D. I'd argue about that with somebody; should be Category A. Studies of populations of patients (nursing homes, infectious diseases, ametropia, many special populations, etc.) are extremely important. It might be an error from the final listing (2014). The other new topics, Injection Skills and Laser Procedures are listed in the outline of law/rules in Category B.
 
Michael W Ohlson said:
Interesting. I wonder how they justified this in terms of protecting the public health. I'm not saying it will or will not. I dunno. No one does. It's just a topic of interest. We've covered the good/bad/known/unknown aspects of CE in other threads. It's a bold step in some ways.
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Mike -- have you (using the royal "you") ever looked at the literature from medicine that shows the efficacy of online vs. in-person CE? I know from personal experience that online CE has been offered in medicine since -- at least -- 1999, so my guess is that there's a body of research available already that might have some correlation (?)
 
I can't cite it off the top of my head, but somewhere on my Mac I have articles supporting online efforts, I think. Might be in cardiology. I'm slipping...

Like I wrote, I'm not opposed a bit. I'm signing up for CEwire.

Medicine leads the way in research on CME/CE. I've seen none generated by optometry. As you might guess, one needs to read critically due to the politics and there's not that much to go on.

Given the trends I've cited previously in accredited CME and CE, I think online work could function very well in terms of addressing gaps in knowledge, performance in practice, and pt outcomes.

The opportunities for interaction, reflection, relevant topics, review, and eventually simulations should be quite remarkable.
 
Adam thinks this might be a good topic for my PH Diplomate.
 
In my mind, either the state boards believe online is a valid method of delivery or they don't. If they do, restricting it to a certain number of hours makes no sense and if they don't, allowing it at ALL doesn't make any sense.

I think I'm going to try to figure out what has to be done to change the Texas law to allow all hours to be online.

I think just this thread alone is argument enough. It seems the only argument FOR live CE is the worry that attendance at conferences would drop. That has zero to do with public health.
 
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Steven Nelson said:
In my mind, either the state boards believe online is a valid method of delivery or they don't. If they do, restricting it to a certain number of hours makes no sense and if they don't, allowing it at ALL doesn't make any sense.

I think I'm going to try to figure out what has to be done to change the Texas law to allow all hours to be online.

I think just this thread alone is argument enough. It seems the only argument FOR live CE is the worry that attendance at conferences would drop. That has zero to do with public health.
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Or they aren't sure yet so they are allowing some and assessing. So I think you need to be prepared to demonstrate its quality and equivalence to live in terms of consumer protection. Think of every argument against. Validating who completed the CE for instance. I can imagine a cottage industry of people doing someone's online CE for them for $20/hr or whatever.
 
Craig Steinberg OD JD said:
Or they aren't sure yet so they are allowing some and assessing. So I think you need to be prepared to demonstrate its quality and equivalence to live in terms of consumer protection. Think of every argument against. Validating who completed the CE for instance. I can imagine a cottage industry of people doing someone's online CE for them for $20/hr or whatever.
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Sure, but how does that outcome vary from showing up and playing Angry Birds for hours in terms of public health? Plus, this is how the check-in process works at live CE: tell them your name. That's it. I know a guy who sends his junior partner to CE and he signs them both in and grabs two of the assessment forms to fill out on his behalf.

Those are really two different issues in my mind. Validating security is a separate issue from the concept of accepting online COPE hours. To me, security has to do with the entity providing the CE than the notion that accepting it as a valid delivery method.
 
Steven Nelson said:
Sure, but how does that outcome vary from showing up and playing Angry Birds for hours in terms of public health? Plus, this is how the check-in process works at live CE: tell them your name. That's it. I know a guy who sends his junior partner to CE and he signs them both in and grabs two of the assessment forms to fill out on his behalf.

Those are really two different issues in my mind. Validating security is a separate issue from the concept of accepting online COPE hours. To me, security has to do with the entity providing the CE than the notion that accepting it as a valid delivery method.
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I can make plenty of devil's advocate arguments against what you say above. But my point is, to push for a law or regulatory change to allow 100% online CE one needs to be prepared for these arguments fully and have satisfactory answers. Saying that in-person CE has the same flaw so why not allow online also probably isn't a really compelling argument.
 
Craig Steinberg OD JD said:
I can make plenty of devil's advocate arguments against what you say above. But my point is, to push for a law or regulatory change to allow 100% online CE one needs to be prepared for these arguments fully and have satisfactory answers. Saying that in-person CE has the same flaw so why not allow online also probably isn't a really compelling argument.
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I wasn't really using that as an argument as much as pointing out that the argument against it implying that live ce is somehow more valid is seriously flawed. I'm only saying that if we're willing to say that the current live system is adequate (which we're actually going a step further saying it's NECESSARY), there is no more security in place than online and in some ways it's less and it's DEFINITELY scrunitized less as there is a quiz over the information with online learning.

If I was going to pose an argument, it would be based on the fact that it's potentially much better for public health due to the following:

1) Taken at the doctor's convenience rather than the lecturer which means they're able to listen when they're in a "learning mode" rather than trying to get into that mode at a specific time.
2) The doctors can spend the time scrutizing the info because they're able to do a couple of hours at a time rather than sitting through an all-day session, so attention span isn't an issue.
3) Because it's a captured event, they can listen over and over if necessary
4) They're ALREADY approved by the exact same entity that approves live courses
5) There is actual scrutiny of the person LISTENING via graded quizzes at the end of the course.
6) Doctors are more available to their patients because they're not having to close their practices in order to make live events.
7) The security measures and identity verification are consistent with current live courses.
8) It's not 1980.
 
Craig Steinberg OD JD said:
I can make plenty of devil's advocate arguments against what you say above. But my point is, to push for a law or regulatory change to allow 100% online CE one needs to be prepared for these arguments fully and have satisfactory answers. Saying that in-person CE has the same flaw so why not allow online also probably isn't a really compelling argument.
Click to expand...

One thing that needs to be done -- and why I thought this would be an interesting subject for gretchyn's diplomate -- is to look at why there is such a great disparity between what states offer, and try to reconcile that.

Each state board has the same data at their disposal -- the literature about online CE in medicine is long-standing, dating back ten years or more. If there's a reason why those studies aren't directly applicable when shaping policy, i've never heard it.
 
AdminWolf said:
One thing that needs to be done -- and why I thought this would be an interesting subject for gretchyn's diplomate -- is to look at why there is such a great disparity between what states offer, and try to reconcile that.

Each state board has the same data at their disposal -- the literature about online CE in medicine is long-standing, dating back ten years or more. If there's a reason why those studies aren't directly applicable when shaping policy, i've never heard it.
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What the different areas offer is ALSO an issue that should be addressed. If you live in a major metro area, you can't swing a cat without hitting CE dinners and what not. If you DON'T live in those areas, you have to pack up and go so availability disparity ALONE is reason enough to approve online CE.
 
Steven Nelson said:
What the different areas offer is ALSO an issue that should be addressed. If you live in a major metro area, you can't swing a cat without hitting CE dinners and what not. If you DON'T live in those areas, you have to pack up and go so availability disparity ALONE is reason enough to approve online CE.
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It's a compelling argument in rural states, where that argument was effective in expanding scope. I'm not sure in the more populated states where travel distance for care wasn't particularly convincing it would be convincing in terms of CE, especially given the knowledge and experience the Board has in traveling themselves to major events.
 
Steven Nelson said:
I wasn't really using that as an argument as much as pointing out that the argument against it implying that live ce is somehow more valid is seriously flawed. I'm only saying that if we're willing to say that the current live system is adequate (which we're actually going a step further saying it's NECESSARY), there is no more security in place than online and in some ways it's less and it's DEFINITELY scrunitized less as there is a quiz over the information with online learning.
Click to expand...

One must be careful not to attack the current system as poor in the process of arguing for a new one. Much better to extol the virtues of the current system, and show how online has all those and more.
 
Steven Nelson said:
I wasn't really using that as an argument as much as pointing out that the argument against it implying that live ce is somehow more valid is seriously flawed. I'm only saying that if we're willing to say that the current live system is adequate (which we're actually going a step further saying it's NECESSARY), there is no more security in place than online and in some ways it's less and it's DEFINITELY scrunitized less as there is a quiz over the information with online learning.

If I was going to pose an argument, it would be based on the fact that it's potentially much better for public health due to the following:

1) Taken at the doctor's convenience rather than the lecturer which means they're able to listen when they're in a "learning mode" rather than trying to get into that mode at a specific time.
2) The doctors can spend the time scrutizing the info because they're able to do a couple of hours at a time rather than sitting through an all-day session, so attention span isn't an issue.
3) Because it's a captured event, they can listen over and over if necessary
4) They're ALREADY approved by the exact same entity that approves live courses
5) There is actual scrutiny of the person LISTENING via graded quizzes at the end of the course.
6) Doctors are more available to their patients because they're not having to close their practices in order to make live events.
7) The security measures and identity verification are consistent with current live courses.
8) It's not 1980.
Click to expand...

9) The ability to pause the lecture to investigate a detail related to the lecture.
 
Craig Steinberg OD JD said:
One must be careful not to attack the current system as poor in the process of arguing for a new one. Much better to extol the virtues of the current system, and show how online has all those and more.
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True...the last thing I want anyone to do is say that must mean our CURRENT system is inadequate.
 
To an ARBO nerd, this is an excellent conversation.

That's really my only point.

While we're all cognizant of the multiple stake-holders and political implications, the discussion often comes back to community health and effectiveness here.

I'm so very proud. I may cry.

Carry on.
 
Mark this date down, everyone. Mike Ohlson is going to cry! In a good way! :D
 
Dammit
 
Gretchyn Bailey said:
:(
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It was this close, though:

Sad-Batman.jpg
 
Batman sings the blues? In costume? Clearly this is not classic Batman.
 
It is true that each plan I made "done fell through." So, I'll give you that.

Now, let's see a version of Batman in his fifties. Not the fifties, his fifties. Older, not in his physical prime, and quite a bit less tolerant of poor behaviors. Appeals to me quite a bit.

1661655_10203230212184486_3570650_n.jpg


10355863_10205168043189050_8144138168959664377_n.jpg
 
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