Gun Control: Where are Optometrists on National Issues?

[Kristopher Glanville]

Many non-OD visitors view our conversation but unable to get into the discussion. So far there have been over 9000 views.

I wonder how they break down pro and anti gun advocates?

Looks like it could break down close to 50/50, another red versus blue issue, urban versus rural, conservative versus liberal. Partisan politics tend to shake out this way. Yin and yang, the concept of balance in nature can be applied.

But consider.....many have advocated censorship and the limitation of free speech in the USA.

Most people rally around the first amendment as if it came off Mt Sinai, but whip the second as an insolent dog.

The founders of the Republic of the United States of America found the right to bear arms against oppressors of freedom and liberty second only to the freedom to speak out against the tyrants that would oppress our freedoms. Have we grown so complacent that we no longer believe evil exists in the world today? Perhaps....or maybe not yet.

 

[Ken Elder]

Looks like it could break down close to 50/50, another red versus blue issue, urban versus rural, conservative versus liberal. Partisan politics tend to shake out this way. Yin and yang, the concept of balance in nature can be applied.

But consider.....many have advocated censorship and the limitation of free speech in the USA.

Most people rally around the first amendment as if it came off Mt Sinai, but whip the second as an insolent dog.

The founders of the Republic of the United States of America found the right to bear arms against oppressors of freedom and liberty second only to the freedom to speak out against the tyrants that would oppress our freedoms. Have we grown so complacent that we no longer believe evil exists in the world today? Perhaps....or maybe not yet.

Kristopher,

The problem with the second amendment is that no one for the past 200 or so years has agreed on what constitutes a "well regulated militia." Nor has anyone even been able to come to a consensus as to what constitutes "arms." Musket? Bowie Knife? Howitzer? Nuclear arsenal?

I've always been more of a fan of the 3rd amendment myself.

 

[Greg Vickers]

even Penn and Teller get it..........

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YY5Rj4cQ50"]YouTube - The 2nd Amendment[/ame][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7ldL1LM"][/ame]

 

[Patrick Shorter O.D.]

Kristopher,

The problem with the second amendment is that no one for the past 200 or so years has agreed on what constitutes a "well regulated militia." Nor has anyone even been able to come to a consensus as to what constitutes "arms." Musket? Bowie Knife? Howitzer? Nuclear arsenal?

I've always been more of a fan of the 3rd amendment myself.

Ken,

I think this piece (http://www.guncite.com/journals/reycrit.html) is a pretty even handed review of the 2nd A.

 

[Kristopher Glanville]

Kristopher,

The problem with the second amendment is that no one for the past 200 or so years has agreed on what constitutes a "well regulated militia." Nor has anyone even been able to come to a consensus as to what constitutes "arms." Musket? Bowie Knife? Howitzer? Nuclear arsenal?

I've always been more of a fan of the 3rd amendment myself.

Please call me Kris, I am only Kristopher when being chastized, oh wait, maybe that is the case.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." (my bold)

Perfectly clear, IMO. No need to worry about the definition of militia, but for fun.

The term militia is commonly used today to refer to a military force composed of ordinary citizens to provide defense, emergency law enforcement, or paramilitary service, in times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a fixed term of service. (Wiki)

An ordinary citizen requires the arms necessary to fulfill the needs described above. So, every US citizen should have at arms the standard issued firearms for military detail, as the Swiss see fit.

What, in your opinion, is the necessary armament needed to complete your task as citizen soldier in times of emergency?

I hold the entire Bill of Rights sacrosanct, but I may be a nostalgic constitutionalist.

 

[Paul Farkas]

Guns don't kill people...blah blah blah. Explain that to these poor folks!

As reported in the 8/5/09 edition of the New York Times...

"At Least 4 Dead in Pittsburgh-Area Shooting

By SEAN D. HAMILL and ANAHAD O’CONNOR
Published: August 4, 2009

BRIDGEVILLE, Pa. — A man carrying guns and a gym bag walked into a busy fitness center just outside Pittsburgh Tuesday evening and opened fire, killing at least three people and wounding nine others, some of them critically, the police and witnesses said.

The shooting took place about 8:15 p.m. at an LA Fitness center aerobics class in a shopping center in Collier Township, about 12 miles southwest of Pittsburgh.

Charles Moffatt, the superintendent of the Allegheny County Police Department, said three women and one man were dead. The police believe he was the gunman. The rest of the victims were all women.

“He did not say anything,” Mr. Moffatt said of the gunman, who was believed to have been a member of the fitness center. “He walked right to the room as if he knew where he was going and started shooting.”

The police said they believe that the gunman shot about 50 rounds from more than one gun, and that the gunman may have intended to kill himself. By the time the local police responded, within about 5 minutes, the shooting was over, the authorities said.

Two handguns and black gym bag were recovered at the scene. Mr. Moffatt also said a note was found, but he did not describe its contents.

As dozens of emergency vehicles converged on the sprawling shopping center and closed off the scene, panicked gym-goers — some bloodied and wounded — fled the fitness center and scrambled for safety.

Richard Walker, 23, of Tulsa, Okla., who is working in oil fields in the area, was playing basketball in the fitness center when the shooting began, and as he and others were running out of the gym, a woman who had been shot in the thigh collapsed in front of him. He picked her up and carried her about 50 yards.

“The woman kept repeating, ‘He’s going to kill me. He’s going to kill me. He’s going to kill me,’ ” Mr. Walker said, still wearing the blood-stained white singlet he wore as he fled.

The woman collapsed, unconscious, and was taken away by emergency workers a few minutes later.

Other people in the gym told him that the woman was the ex-girlfriend of the gunman, Mr. Walker said.

One woman, Stacey Falk, 26, told The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that the gunman appeared clean-shaven and short, wearing workout clothes as he entered the aerobics studio where Ms. Falk was exercising with as many as 40 other women.

The man stood in a corner for a brief moment, Ms. Falk said, then put his bag on the floor, shut the lights and began spraying the room with bullets from what appeared to be a short-barrel rifle.

“Girls were just ducking behind each other,” she said. “All I could hear were shots and screams.”

Another woman who was in the gym, Lauren Dooley, 26, told the paper that the gym descended into chaos as soon as the shooting began. Ms. Dooley was on a treadmill with headphones on but still counted as many as 15 shots.

“I saw people flying off the treadmills, hitting the ground,” she said. “We crawled through the fire escape and I sprinted out the back.”

Tom Devin, the Collier Township police chief, told WTAE News in Pennsylvania, “We believe the shooter committed suicide at the scene but we’re not positive.”

The shootings took place at a dance aerobics class called Latin Impact that incorporates salsa music, said Debi Wozniak, 51, of Dormont, a regular participant. The class is held from 8 to 9 p.m. on Tuesdays and is taught by a very popular teacher named Mary, Ms. Wozniak said. It can have between 25 to 30 students.

Ms. Wozniak said her sister, Joann Gazzam, was at the class when the attack occurred.

“Debi, I saw everything,” Ms. Wozniak quoted her sister as saying. “I saw him pull out the guns, I saw him start shooting, I saw Mary get hit. It was awful.”

Sean D. Hamill reported from Bridgeville, Pa., and Anahad O’Connor from New York.

 

[Patrick Shorter O.D.]

As reported in the 8/5/09 edition of the New York Times...

Must we continuously use victims as pawns in this debate? Let's trot out the same arguments... imagine if perhaps just ONE of these people had the means to protect themselves with a firearm of their own. Would it have turned out any differently? Maybe, maybe not, but it sure would have leveled the playing field.

Secondly, I am pretty sure where this occurred was a 'gun-free' location. So, there's NO WAY this guy would have brought in these guns and used them! Surely he followed the laws about carrying weapons! What? Hmmm? You mean the CRIMINAL didn't FOLLOW the LAW? EGADS!

We can all trot out examples to 'support' our arguments. You can bring these random violent attacks, and I can post stories of lives saved. Neither one is going to change the other's opinion.

It boils down to the FACT that Americans have a RIGHT that is RECOGNIZED (not GIVEN) by the Constitution of the United States of America to arm themselves, and to bear those arms.

Does it mean that some nut-jobs are still going to perform acts of violence, absolutely it does, just like the 1st Amendment doesn't keep people in love with using the force of the Federal government to force restrictions on their neighbors because they are ignorant of our Country's history and founding, from voicing their opinions loudly.

How much do you want to wager the shooter has a criminal history, probably even domestic violence of some sort, yet received no real punishment? I don't know if he did or didn't, but the GUN isn't the problem. Society, the 'justice' system and crazy folks are the problem.

 

[Tory Moore]

Again, only YOU are responsible for your protection. Not the military, the police, or your mama. You. You can never predict who is a nut and what they are going to do. He could have driven his car through the front window, set off a bomb or crashed an airliner into the building. Different tool, same effect. Don't cry for gun bans because of your own insecurities and fears of firearms. Your just burying your head in the sand.

You can be a sheep, a wolf or a sheepdog. Your choice. I choose sheepdog.

 

[Paul Farkas]

An opportunity for a creative sportswear designer...

Build into the training outfits a holster, so gun enthusiasts can carry while working out.

 

[Patrick Shorter O.D.]

Build into the training outfits a holster, so gun enthusiasts can carry while working out.

THUNDERWEAR

Ask and you will receive... not for me, I don't particularly care for my firearms pointing at my twig and berries...

 

[Michael A. Langevin]

Ya just can't stop a true romantics expression of LOVE.

LOVE caused this pure and simple. If this guy hadn't fallen in love this would never have happened.

BAN LOVE!!!!!!!

 

[Paul Farkas]

And now unhappy Academics are becoming shooters...

Guns don't kill people ,blah blah blah...

A report in the 2/13/10 edition of the New York Times...

"Professor Said to Be Charged After 3 Are Killed in Alabama


By SARAH WHEATON and SHAILA DEWAN
Published: February 12, 2010

Three faculty members at the University of Alabama in Huntsville were shot to death, and three other people were seriously wounded at a biology faculty meeting on Friday afternoon, university officials said.

According to a faculty member, the professor had applied for tenure, been turned down, and appealed the decision. She learned on Friday that she had been denied once again.

The Huntsville Times identified Dr. Bishop as a Harvard-educated neuroscientist. According to a 2006 profile in the newspaper, Dr. Bishop invented a portable cell growth incubator with her husband, Jim Anderson. Police officials said that Mr. Anderson was being detained, but they did not call him a suspect.

Photographs of a suspect being led from the scene by the police appeared to match images of Dr. Bishop on academic and technology Web sites.

Dr. Bishop had told acquaintances recently that she was worried about getting tenure, said a business associate who met her at a business technology open house at the end of January and asked not to be named because of the close-knit nature of the science community in Huntsville.

“She began to talk about her problems getting tenure in a very forceful and animated way, saying it was unfair,” the associate said, referring to a conversation in which she blamed specific colleagues for her problems.

“She seemed to be one of these persons who was just very open with her feelings,” he said. “A very smart, intense person who had a variety of opinions on issues.”

The shooting occurred in the Shelby Center at the university around 4 p.m., officials said. Few students were in the building, and none were involved in the shooting, said Ray Garner, a university spokesman.

Officials said the dead were all biology professors, G. K. Podila, the department’s chairman; Maria Ragland Davis; and Adriel D. Johnson Sr. Two other biology professors, Luis Rogelio Cruz-Vera and Joseph G. Leahy, as well as a professor’s assistant, Stephanie Monticciolo, are at Huntsville Hospital in conditions ranging from stable to critical.

Officials said the suspect was detained outside of the building “without incident.” The police said a weapon had not been recovered.

Andrew Ols, a senior at the university, said he had been in a biology lab in the Shelby Center less than five minutes before the shooting began. “Now that we realize that it was a faculty person that committed the crime, no students were injured and no students were targeted or anything like that, there’s more shock than there is fear,” he said.

The shooting came just a week after a middle school student near Huntsville shot and killed a classmate.

“This is a very safe campus,” Mr. Garner said. “It’s not unlike what we experienced a week ago. This town is not accustomed to shootings and having multiple dead.”

Nick Zivkovic, a senior, was filling his gas tank around 4 p.m. after finishing a lab in the Shelby Center. “Next thing I know, 40 to 50 police cars are flying by,” he said. Back at the building, emergency vehicles created an “ocean of lights” as police with SWAT gear and automatic weapons stormed into the building. A registered first responder, Mr. Zivkovic passed out blankets and tried to comfort the evacuated students who were trembling and mumbling in the parking lot.

“You just try to hand them some hot chocolate,” he said.

The university was put on lockdown “almost instantaneously,” said Trent Willis, chief of staff to Mayor Tommy Battle. But some students complained on Twitter and to reporters that they did not receive the university’s alert until hours after the shooting.

“The U-Alert was triggered late because the people involved in activating that system were involved in responding to the shooting,” said Charles Gailes, chief of the university police, at a news conference.

“We’re going to stop, we’re going to sit down, we’re going to review what happened,” Mr. Gailes said. “All of these actions are going to be learning points, and we’re going to be better for this.”

Erin Johnson, a sophomore, told The Huntsville Times that a biology faculty meeting was under way when she heard screams coming from the room.

According to the 2006 profile, Dr. Bishop and her husband tired of using old-fashioned petri dishes for cell incubation and designed a sealed, self-contained mobile cell incubation system. The system was described as reducing many of the problems with cultivating tissues in the fragile environment of the petri dish. The system was later marketed by Prodigy Biosystems, which raised $1.2 million in capital financing after winning third place in an Alabama technology competition."

Robbie Brown contributed reporting from Atlanta.

 

[Paul Farkas]

More gun violence!

Breaking news as reported by CNN on 11/8/11...

"Arizona congresswoman among 12 shot at Tucson grocery

By the CNN Wire Staff
January 8, 2011 3:05 p.m. EST

(CNN) -- U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was critically wounded Saturday in a shooting at a Tucson, Arizona, grocery store in which at least 11 other people were injured, officials said.

Darci Slaten, a spokeswoman for University Medical Center in Tucson, said Giffords was undergoing surgery Saturday afternoon for a gunshot wound to the head.
A federal judge from Arizona was among the 11 others shot in the incident, a law enforcement source told CNN.

The shooting happened shortly after 10 a.m. MST, Pima County Sheriff's Department spokesman Jason Ogan said.

AZ congresswoman among 12 shot in Tuscon Several shot at Tuscon grocery store

Giffords, 40, was holding a constituent meeting at the Safeway grocery store when the shooting occurred, according to a schedule posted on her website.

An FBI spokesman said the agency was sending agents to the scene, and two senior Obama administration officials said the White House is monitoring the situation. They said they believed that a congressional staffer may have been killed.

Pictures from the scene showed a Giffords banner hanging from the storefront.

At least two victims with gunshot wounds were transported at Northwest Medical Center, according to spokesman Richard Parker.

The conditions of the 11 others shot were not immediately known.
The motive for the shooting is unclear, Ogan said.
"We're just trying to sort this out right now," he said.

An employee of a nearby business, Jason Pekau, told CNN that he did not see the shooting, but heard "15 to 20 gunshots."

Giffords, a Democrat, was first elected in 2006. She has served as chairwoman of the House Space and Aeronautics Subcommittee and also holds seats on the House Science and Technology and Armed Services committees.

She won her third term in a closely contested race against a Tea Party-sponsored candidate and was one of three Democratic legislators who reported vandalism at their offices following the March vote on health care reform.

She is married to Navy Capt. Mark Kelly, a NASA astronaut who is scheduled to lead a space shuttle mission to the International Space Station.

House Speaker John Boehner said he was "horrified" by the shooting.
"An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve," he said. "Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society."

 

[Paul Farkas]

The discussion continues

For ODs who feel more comfortable discussing this issue in a more private forum...

http://www.odwire.org/forum/threads/58879-US-Rep-Gifford

 

[Paul Farkas]

The National Rifle Association (NRA) efforts comes home to roost

A disturbing report in the 11/14/11 edition of the New York Times...

"Felons Finding It Easy to Get Gun Rights Reinstated

By MICHAEL LUO
Published: November 13, 2011

In February 2005, Erik Zettergren came home from a party after midnight with his girlfriend and another couple. They had all been drinking heavily, and soon the other man and Mr. Zettergren’s girlfriend passed out on his bed. When Mr. Zettergren went to check on them later, he found his girlfriend naked from the waist down and the other man, Jason Robinson, with his pants around his ankles.


Enraged, Mr. Zettergren ordered Mr. Robinson to leave. After a brief confrontation, Mr. Zettergren shot him in the temple at point-blank range with a Glock-17 semiautomatic handgun. He then forced Mr. Robinson’s hysterical fiancée, at gunpoint, to help him dispose of the body in a nearby river.

It was the first homicide in more than 30 years in the small town of Endicott, in eastern Washington. But for a judge’s ruling two months before, it would probably never have happened.

For years, Mr. Zettergren had been barred from possessing firearms because of two felony convictions. He had a history of mental health problems and friends said he was dangerous. Yet Mr. Zettergren’s gun rights were restored without even a hearing, under a state law that gave the judge no leeway to deny the application as long as certain basic requirements had been met. Mr. Zettergren, then 36, wasted no time retrieving several guns he had given to a friend for safekeeping.

“If he hadn’t had his rights restored, in this particular instance, it probably would have saved the life of the other person,” said Denis Tracy, the prosecutor in Whitman County, who handled the murder case.

Under federal law, people with felony convictions forfeit their right to bear arms. Yet every year, thousands of felons across the country have those rights reinstated, often with little or no review. In several states, they include people convicted of violent crimes, including first-degree murder and manslaughter, an examination by The New York Times has found.

While previously a small number of felons were able to reclaim their gun rights, the process became commonplace in many states in the late 1980s, after Congress started allowing state laws to dictate these reinstatements — part of an overhaul of federal gun laws orchestrated by the National Rifle Association. The restoration movement has gathered force in recent years, as gun rights advocates have sought to capitalize on the 2008 Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to bear arms..."

For the complete story...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/u...n-gun-rights.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

 

[Harvey Rosenwasser]

God Bless Old Ladies

I didn't know if I should post this here or in jokes, but....

Story from a Kansas State Highway Patrol officer :




I made a traffic stop on an elderly lady the other day for speeding



on U.S. 166 Eastbound at Mile Marker 73 just East of Sedan, Kansas.



I asked for her driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance.



The lady took out the required information and handed it to me.




In with the cards I was somewhat surprised (due to her advanced age)



to see she had a conceal carry permit. I looked at her and ask if



she had a weapon in her possession at this time.




She responded that she indeed had a .45 automatic in her glove box.



Something ---body language, or the way she said it---made me want to ask if she had any other firearms.

She did admit to also having a 9mm Glock in her center console.




Now I had to ask one more time if that was all. She responded



once again that she did have just one more, a .38 special in her purse.

I then asked her what was she so afraid of?




She looked me right in the eye and said, "Not a fu$#ing thing!"

 

[Diane Boese]

Dr. Rosenwasswer,
I enjoyed your post! It reminds me of a news paper article recently sent to me by a friend. The article tells the story of an elderly grandmother in Florida that was authorized to carry a concealed weapon. As the woman was returning to her vehicle after grocery shopping, she noticed what looked like three young men getting into her vehicle. She dropped her groceries and pulled out her hand gun. She yelled at the intruders that she had a gun; she knew how to use it; and told them to get out of the vehicle. The young men got out and ran away. The woman was shaken, but picked up her bags and got into the vehicle. After several tries to calm down and start the vehicle, she realized it was not her car.
She picked up the grocery sacks, located her car and drove to the nearest police station to report what happened.
The police officer at the station couldn't stop laughing while she told him the story. Finally he pointed to a glass enclosed room where the three young men sat. They were reporting a car jacking by a grey haired elderly woman.

 

[Mike Alvarez]

What Con Law class did you take?



Stephen - Spoken like a true Texan. However, every Con Law course in the country teaches that, "The People," means the populous and not the individual.

Close...but no banana.

I've not read thru this entire thread, and by now the Supreme Court has weighed in to say you're wrong, but why would we need an amendment to guarantee the right of "the populous" to own guns? What would that even mean? That the government won't limit the right of the government to own guns?

 

[Joe DiGiorgio O.D.]

I then asked her what was she so afraid of?




She looked me right in the eye and said, "Not a fu$#ing thing!"

LOL--Good one. Nice job up there Harvey!

 

[Stephen G. Hlis O.D.]

Brown County, Texas has an approximate population of 38,000.

According to http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/texas-homicide ,

the Homicide Rate is 3.83 per 100,000 in Brown County, Texas. Since Deaths by Firearms statistics were only available for States, 3.83 per 100k represents homicides by any means.

Does Brown County, Texas need gun control laws to reduce its Homicide rate lower than 3.83 per 100,000?
I think not.

Remember, New York has one of the strictest gun control laws in the country and its Death by Firearms Rate is 4.1 per 100,000.

Brown County's 3.83 is for all murders combined so the number is even smaller for firearm related deaths.

Deaths in any small town, city or county has to do with people not guns. Broken families, lack of morals, MENTAL ILLNESS, and no regard for life.

There are over 100 churches in Brown County, TX, the majority of which placed me on their prayer list when I had cancer. Brown Countians truly care about one another.
When my wife and I are walking in the evening, people in cars that pass by wave to us everyday as a friendly gesture.

Farmers, ranchers, families, business owners, neighbors, teachers & administrators, play an active role in the community by caring for one another. I believe this is instrumental in having low firearm deaths in Brown County, Texas.

I have been residing in Brown County, Texas for over 20 years and most people I know, including myself, own guns. If Brown County, Texas has such lenient gun laws, why does it have the lowest gun related murder rate in the country?

Politicians from both parties just want to get the-elected. They are all a bunch of hypocrites.

 

[Joe DiGiorgio O.D.]

Yikes, St. Clair County is even more dangerous than "Crook" County. It would seem hard to beat a shooting every 2.5 hours (with illegally acquired firearms). I am sure they are proud to be #1.

 

[Stephen G. Hlis O.D.]

Yikes, St. Clair County is even more dangerous than "Crook" County. It would seem hard to beat a shooting every 2.5 hours (with illegally acquired firearms). I am sure they are proud to be #1.

It's all about guns and climate change which are causing these horrific homicides. I'm glad we have a president who shows leadership in taking care of climate change. I don't know what we would do without him.

 

[Will Elmore]

Gun control is very straight forward...even Lefties should...with practice...be able to master the technique.

Gun control...and it's been said a thousand times....is TWO hands on the pistol grip.

Hitting a target accurately and repeatedly, well that will take some acquired skill.